Esther Dyson
Entrepreneur, venture capitalist, publisher, author, and central Net presence for nearly two decades, Esther Dyson ( Release 1.0
) always seems to know where the Web is and where it is going next. In
this exclusive interview she talks about the once and future Internet
with Andrew Keen.
LISTEN TO KEEN AND DYSON
Andrew Keen: Welcome to After TV, the show about media technology and culture. Today we are talking with Esther Dyson, a very well known technology visionary. She is with C-Net Networks and she’s the Editor of Release 1.0.
Esther Dyson: Hi.
Andrew Keen: Thanks Esther for appearing on After TV.
Esther Dyson: My pleasure, but I’m not just a--I’m not so much a visionary as a skeptic I would say.
Andrew Keen: Well I brought up Esther up to the hills of Berkeley so she can look over the whole Bay Area and at least try and be a visionary. What I want Esther to talk about today is technology over the next few years, particularly the next 10 years. Esther was involved in a very interesting online newspaper debate with [Vin Cerf] of Google Networks about the future of technology. One of the things you said Esther was that the Internet will have more ubiquity, will be less-visible; what did you mean by that?
Esther Dyson: I meant that it will be everywhere but you won't see it because you will take it for granted. It’s like electricity; you almost--except maybe on the porch of the Claremont overlooking San Francisco--you expect it to be everywhere but you don’t really notice it. You just take it for granted. So you expect this table to be plugged in so that for example I could get a reading of whether someone had left an item on the table, you expect your swimming pool to be wired so that you can find out what the temperature is, you expect your kid to have a chip somewhere so that you can make sure he gets on the bus, you expect the bus to have a chip so you can make sure you know when the bus is coming; the Internet is not going to be just more ubiquitous but it’s going to be more physical. We’ve sort of built out the virtual Internet and now we’re extending the Internet to kind of lay it over the whole physical world.
Andrew Keen: In his forward to Amusing Ourselves to Death, the techno-skeptic, Neil Postman made the comparison between George Orwell and Aldous Huxley imagining the future of technology either as 1984’s Brave New World; is your vision one of those? Are you really that skeptical? What does this mean to have technology that you can't see but is everywhere?
Esther Dyson: You know the world--not only is the future not evenly distributed, [but] shaped--I think Bruce Sterling--maybe [William] Gibson, but it’s also not even; so you may have repression in one place and you may have Aldous Huxley in one place and Orwell in another. You--geography still matters. As long as someone can burst into your house and arrest you physically it’s not the same being in China as being in the US. So I think some of the world is going to be like Orwell or like this movie I just saw, V for Vendetta; some other of it is--it’s really not a question of technology. It’s a question--what we allow our government to do or of the government we elect and in most places people elect their government. In many places I would say they elect the wrong government but that’s not their judgment; that’s my judgment.
Andrew Keen: But let’s take America first since we’re here; how is this going to impact this invisible but ubiquitous technology on American politics and on society?
Esther Dyson: Well it’s still really not clear yet. I think--I don’t think the next election will decide everything but we’re definitely tending in the direction of much more surveillance, much more control; if we allow that to continue it’s much easier for the government to survey and control because they have all this technology at their hands.
Andrew Keen: This is the Orwell scenario--is it?
Esther Dyson: Yeah; and I mean Huxley as well. The thing is that in Huxley they were happy about it. [Laughs]
Andrew Keen: Right. [Laughs]
Esther Dyson: So--
Andrew Keen: Well they were drugged, so they were taking happy pills.
Esther Dyson: Yeah; well you see I think the real technology news in the next 20 years is probably much more about bio-tech and performance drugs including happiness as a performance, i.e. if you’re happy you can perform better, so let’s put you on Prozac so that you don’t feel crummy when you’ve screwed up. And I mean personally I think feeling crummy when you’ve screwed up is a very good feedback mechanism.
Andrew Keen: Although on your email you have your--your tag-line is what--make mistakes?
Esther Dyson: Always make new mistakes; don’t make the same old ones.
Andrew Keen: Oh new mistakes [Laughs] and that doesn’t make you feel bad.
Esther Dyson: No; it should make you feel bad and that’s why you make a new one instead of the old one.
Andrew Keen: So it’s good to feel bad that you go onto make--
Esther Dyson: It’s like so many things; it’s good to feel bad if it provokes the proper response which is to make a different mistake next time. It’s not good to feel bad just in general. On the other hand, a lot of Americans, not only do they feel unhappy but they feel that they’re inadequate because they feel unhappy. If you were in objectively unpleasant circumstances you should feel unhappy and it’s like desensitizing ourselves to pain is not good. Eliminating pain that has no purpose is good; so it’s like everything else. You need to judge when it’s correct to do something and when it’s not. That’s what--that’s what being a grownup is; it means making judgments, making ethical judgments saying this is enough; that is too much.
Andrew Keen: As we drift towards Orwell and Huxley and you--
Esther Dyson: I don’t mean to be quite so bleak. It’s just--
Andrew Keen: Well as we drift towards elements or shades or potential--
Esther Dyson: Yeah; right.
Andrew Keen: --of Orwell and Huxley, do you feel you as one of the most sort of articulate and loud I guess visionaries--technology visionaries over the last generation--do you feel you’ve made a mistake? Do you feel that where--that this ubiquitous world of technology is actually something that we now need to be very careful and critical of?
Esther Dyson: No; I mean yes, we need to be careful and critical of it. No; I don’t think I made a mistake--a big mistake.
Andrew Keen: So you don’t feel bad?
Esther Dyson: No; I mean I’ve always tried to get people to think more about the implications of all this stuff.
Andrew Keen: Right.
Esther Dyson: And by and large it’s good; you can't--I was in India last week and you see people getting cell phones, becoming empowered and able to make payments to find out what’s going on; it’s--this stuff is good. It can be misused--badly misused. The problem though is human nature; it’s not technology.
Andrew Keen: Right; so let me come back to the politics of this. Are you more fearful in terms of this aggregation of information? Are you fearful that the government will misuse it or companies like say Google will misuse it?
Esther Dyson: Well I’m not worried about companies misusing it as companies. I am worried about companies giving it to the government. It’s the government that has power. I mean Google can sell me stuff and they have the power to reveal my information--
Andrew Keen: But Google knows a lot more about you than the government does.
Esther Dyson: Right; but Google knowing it doesn’t put me in danger. The government knowing it does; so the problem is if Google gives it to the government, but the point is the government has the power to put me in jail, the government has the power to deny me my rights. Google does not. That doesn’t mean that the Google information can't be dangerous in the hands of the government, but understand that it’s the power of the government that is the problem not Google’s information. And that’s a subtle distinction but it’s real.
Andrew Keen: So does the responsibility of the tech community and of spokespeople like yourself to convince Google of the importance of maintaining the source of--the religiousness of information in terms of giving it away?
Esther Dyson: I think Google is pretty well aware of that.
Andrew Keen: Yeah?
Esther Dyson: It doesn’t hurt for them to be reminded.
Andrew Keen: Although they’re you know--the China story is very concerning isn't it?
Esther Dyson: Aren’t you thinking of the Yahoo China story?
Andrew Keen: Well and the Google in terms of the way in which Google--
Esther Dyson: But look; these are very, very different issues. Yahoo gave information about one of its subscribers to the government.
Andrew Keen: Right; and so do Microsoft, right?
Esther Dyson: Google--Microsoft--I don’t know; Google blocks information.
Andrew Keen: Right.
Esther Dyson: That’s a huge distinction; I mean you see people need to be crisp about evil just as they’re crisp about other things. Because the rule is not black and white and you need--
Andrew Keen: Right.
Esther Dyson: --just blanketing everything as bad doesn’t enable you to kick out the good to decide--again you need human judgment. Does giving more Chinese people more information, letting them see what they’re not seeing--is that good or bad? Fundamentally I think it’s good.
Andrew Keen: You mean the Google sort of censored engine in China?
Esther Dyson: Yes; I think Google and Yahoo and Microsoft and everybody else getting together to ask the US government to lobby China makes sense; though I’m not sure how much good it will do. I don’t think--you know I spend a lot of time in Russia. I see, if you like--moral issues everywhere there. I could decide not to go to Russia because by going to Russia I’m in essence condoning bribery and all this kind of stuff. But I don’t because I think you can't fix the world without getting muddy. And if you want to be completely pure you should just stay out of these things.
Andrew Keen: Stand back right.
Esther Dyson: Yeah; and I think--so I think it is important to make distinctions. I don’t think I’m sliding down a slippery slope of ethics. I think I’m in there thinking for--trying to get other people to think this belief because you need crispness and clarity in order to find what’s good, what’s bad, why it’s good, why it’s bad, what the implications are, long-term versus short-term; it’s not just shades of gray. There’s actually structure there; there is leverage points, getting more people to understand what’s wrong in their own country, getting the Chinese--. And the Chinese problem, it goes back to this always making new mistakes--the Chinese problem is the government hates to admit mistakes. But if you don’t admit your mistakes you can't fix them, so if you help the Chinese see a few mistakes and see how that admission can help them be fixed that’s tremendously powerful. It’s hard to do because they still don’t like to admit that they make mistakes, but here in the US we have another great example--Paul O’Neill, our former Treasury Secretary says we can't fix our hospitals until we start admitting we’re killing people, which is true. We’re killing people all the time but we won't admit it because of legal issues more than censorship issues. You have to go and acknowledge what’s wrong before you can fix it. That’s something that China really needs to learn. If we just blanket condemn them and don’t bother to go in there we’re not going to help.
Andrew Keen: In your Wall Street Journal piece you talked about the Internet representing a shift of power towards individuals over the next 10 years.
Esther Dyson: Right.
Andrew Keen: What does that mean?
Esther Dyson: It means that the power of institutions is constantly eroded by transparency by individuals talking back to the institutions, by individuals talking about the institutions; it means the world is more dynamic and fluid. It’s harder to grab power and hang onto it. What it also means is that--as any individual gets power that individual’s power is more subject to erosion because you become famous and then you know--[Guckert] writes about you and your personal life is transparent for everybody to see whatever--. So it’s a world where the distance between the top and the bottom--I’m not talking economically; I’m talking now in terms of power--gets eroded. There are lots of counter-forces like the government still has power to send certain surveillance and so forth and they have the power to use that information. But in general, I would say more individuals have more power now than in the past and they have more power over their own lives, less power perhaps over the lives of others, which is good as far as I’m concerned.
Andrew Keen: But how does that power manifest itself? Is--are you talking about people building up their reputations?
Esther Dyson: I’m talking about who I can communicate with, my ability to find out what’s going on, what’s available to me, what my career options are, what trains there are from Berkeley to San Francisco--the kind of stuff where 20 years ago you needed a personal assistant and a library card and a lot of time. You can now go online and find the stuff out in two minutes; that is huge power--not over other people, but over your own ability to pick what you want out of what’s available.
Andrew Keen: So it’s convenient and it saves time?
Esther Dyson: Well but it’s also--I know which hospital kills more people than another hospital; I know what this politician--who this politician was talking to last week; I know the safety record of this airline versus that airline. It’s not just convenience; it is a lot more personal knowledge and personal choice.
Andrew Keen: Aren’t you describing a very specific kind of individual?
Esther Dyson: Well not everybody benefits from this directly. A lot of benefit from it indirectly and some people you know--not everybody is happy in this world and not everybody is fulfilled--absolutely. But you have the leading edge helping to change the world for the rest of it--for the rest of the people.
Andrew Keen: And how do you think this will impact on people’s relations with each other? How does this impact on our social contract, our social pact? Does it make us more competitive?
Esther Dyson: I think--I mean the one bad thing is it probably makes us less willing to settle. Sometimes if you settle you work harder to be happy with what you’ve got. So we have more divorce; we have--relationships tend not to be as lasting. Another--we live longer; we outlast our relationships much more, so you know--yeah; there are negative sides to this and positive sides, but if you--you--I forget who it is, but you know there’s this notion of design--I think it was John [Rawls] or something--design a society in which you would want to live without knowledge of whether you would be rich or poor in that society.
Andrew Keen: Right; that’s [Rawls].
Esther Dyson: Right; so another formulation of it is pick a century in which to live if you did not know whether you would be rich or poor, and I’d certainly rather live in this century than 300 years ago.
Andrew Keen: But would you rather live in the 21st Century or the 20th Century in terms of being rich or poor?
Esther Dyson: Me, I’d pick the 21st.
Andrew Keen: So you believe that--and I know that this is not just purely a technology question--
Esther Dyson: It’s totally not a technology question.
Andrew Keen: Although as technology becomes more ubiquitous and influential in shaping the way we live it does relate; you think that there will be less differences between rich and poor in the 21st Century than the 20th?
Esther Dyson: Not necessarily but I think even the poor will be better off. I mean I--if--it’s really--it is a really tough question and is an average good enough, or is it the median that matters? I don’t know. But I do know had I been born 300 years ago I would have been a cripple because my legs were bent when I came out of the womb and because of modern medicine I was put in casts and so I’m not--maybe I should be more politically correct--I’m not disabled. Had I been born I don’t know when it was--but 1,000 years ago I’m now probably legally blind without vision correction. And yes, I’m a very privileged person in this century but by and large I think for more people things are getting better. That doesn’t mean--it’s not just there’s not a long way to go; that doesn’t mean there aren’t horrible devastating things going on in the world right now that those of us who are lucky should be trying to correct.
Andrew Keen: What you’re saying I think is that smart people benefit from technology; they use it for their advantage; they use it--
Esther Dyson: Even dumb people do; smart people--
Andrew Keen: Give me an example of how dumb people use technology.
Esther Dyson: They use it the same way as smart people do. They get online and they find out things.
Andrew Keen: But don’t they often find out the wrong things? They go to the wrong blog, the wrong website; isn't that the problem?
Esther Dyson: I think--
Andrew Keen: I mean how would you distinguish between--I mean I think we’re getting stuck here and--
Esther Dyson: Okay; I think you’re a smart guy and I don’t think you give enough respect to people who aren’t as smart as you are. There are a lot of things people who are not in the upper deciles are unable to do to control their own--I mean just go to a shopping mall. You may be appalled at what people buy, you may think that they--but people have more choices, they have more freedom; they’re not necessarily happier [Laughs].
Andrew Keen: Right.
Esther Dyson: But it’s very elitist to say well just because these people can choose they’re choosing things I don’t approve of and therefore it’s not good.
Andrew Keen: But thinking specifically on technology and the way in which people say take--and I mean specifically about the Internet, do you think that it requires education and some sort of intellectual sensibility to be able to use the Internet properly?
Esther Dyson: No; and I mean it’s not just the Internet. First of all if you think iPods are good because people get plugged in and listen to music, you don’t need to be of above-average intelligence to use an iPod. You don’t need to be above-average--being able to read and write is really key in the modern world. If you don’t have that you’re in trouble.
Andrew Keen: Right.
Esther Dyson: But one thing I hope technology will enable us to do is to become a richer, more productive world overall so that we’ll be able to teach more people to read and write, because I mean there are some people who simply are intellectually incapable of it but almost--it’s a very small percentage. It’s a very large number of people who can't read and write because they weren't able to have the benefit of an education, and I don’t think putting a computer in a school is going to enable people to read and write. But I do think more technology is going to make society richer and more productive, so that they have enough surpluses to teach their children to read and write.
Andrew Keen: In your Journal piece you also talked about something called the attention economy, which is a hot concept at the moment. I know it’s not yours but you’re one of its--you didn’t invent it but you’re one of its champions. Do you want to describe what you mean by it?
Esther Dyson: No; I’m not a champion of it. I’m a champion of understanding the concept.
Andrew Keen: Right. [Laughs]
Esther Dyson: It’s a very different thing. The attention economy fundamentally says that the thing that is now scarce is attention. We’ve gotten--and this is this sort of upper middle class thing--we’ve got enough stuff, we’ve got enough goods, we’ve got enough--almost everything--the thing that’s in short supply is attention from other human beings. A computer cannot pay you attention. It’s this innate thing that--it’s not sex, it’s not love, it’s not food but it’s something humans crave and that’s the attention of other human beings. And in order to get that attention they buy stuff, they buy cute clothes, they try to look nicer, they blog, they put up a My Space profile and so people go online not to give attention to vendors, but to get attention for themselves in many cases. And that I think isn't well enough understood. The--sort of the misguided notion in the attention economy is that it’s about the attention consumers [carry] to products. But the real attention economy is about the economy of the interaction between people--people’s desire for attention, people’s desire to have fans--the guy who explained all this best is Michael Goldhaber.
Andrew Keen: Right, who has been on this show.
Esther Dyson: Oh good. Okay; then you’ve covered that, so--.
Andrew Keen: So it’s not really an economy; it’s more of a--
Esther Dyson: No; it’s an economy.
Andrew Keen: Well it’s more of a sort of an existential struggle almost for recognition?
Esther Dyson: Well that’s the--there is a struggle but there’s also an economy where attention is traded, where attention is scarce, where people try to amass attention; that’s an economy.
Andrew Keen: Is that the real future economics of the entertainment and information economy?
Esther Dyson: Well Michael is a bit more radical on that and you probably asked him to--.
Andrew Keen: Right.
Esther Dyson: I think they’re going to co-exist for a long time just as industrial and agrarian co-exist and so forth and as I said earlier, the future in the attention economy are unevenly distributed. There are lots of places where people aren’t looking for attention; they’re looking for food.
Andrew Keen: Right.
Esther Dyson: So it varies.
Andrew Keen: What about advertising?
Esther Dyson: What about it?
Andrew Keen: [Laughs] In this so-called attention economy, if people are trying to drive eyeballs to read or watch or listen to what they’re saying how is anyone going to make any money at it?
Esther Dyson: Oh you can make money by helping people get attention. You have a website where someone gets attention; the flows of money, they’re not exactly counter to the flows of attention but they’re--again they’re flowing around there as well. You make money by advertising because somebody buys a product and then part of that--the money that they pay goes to advertising. So it’s--attention to products does exist and that fosters financial progress. Attention to people also directs some financial commerce but it’s the attention you trade and get back and the attention attractiveness people gain by being paid attention to in the first place--sort of this circular thing. They’re all interacting. That was not a great answer. [Laughs]
Andrew Keen: [Laughs] But that--I think that’s one of the challenges of the attention economy is--I think everyone who hears it as an idea is intrigued because it obviously makes some sense, but it’s very difficult to define and in your language crisply--you’re not the only one.
Esther Dyson: Well you’re right and 100 years ago it was very hard to define a lot of other things and then we got behavioral economics and we got lots of models. The thing I like is--I mean there’s some math in here. For example, imagine--I have this notion of one Kissinger--one Kissinger will attract an audience in 10.1 Kissinger people. He will attract an audience of 2,000--0.5 Kissinger people, so everybody is rated as where are you on the Kissinger scale.
Andrew Keen: What does that mean though?
Esther Dyson: Well it means--I mean that’s an analytical metric. A Kissinger is a mention--is a measure--
Andrew Keen: This is a Henry Kissinger?
Esther Dyson: Yeah; it’s a measure of attention production, attention value.
Andrew Keen: Oh I see; you mean--so Kissinger is the ultimate in terms of attention?
Esther Dyson: Well he’s--no, I mean there’s actually like George Bush now is probably 10 Kissingers like it or not, so--but you can sort of measure how big an audience someone will attract and you can have a smaller audience of more important people--you know what will get Kissinger to show up? It’s not 10 guys off the street, but it may be 10 Ministers of Finance or something. Then another interesting metric is you know imagine the President in Poland right.
Andrew Keen: Two aren’t there now--they’re twins.
Esther Dyson: Well one is President and one is Prime Minister or something.
Andrew Keen: Right. [Laughs]
Esther Dyson: So in Poland because there’s also a distance component to attention--in Poland he’s--his--he’s got a very high Kissinger.
Andrew Keen: Right.
Esther Dyson: But if you take the President of Poland and you put him in the US that’s why important people always travel with other people to pay attention to them, so that even when he comes to America he has this cadre of people around him paying attention to him that kind of enclose him in this bubble of attention value because when he goes out of Poland, unless he’s in the State Department in the US he kind of loses that. So you need to give him a protective bubble with people to pay attention to him.
Andrew Keen: So all this attention really is--is a kind of aristocracy right? There are Kissinger(s), there are Bush(s); there are Presidents all--
Esther Dyson: But there are beautiful girls, there are TV stars, there’s sports stars--.
Andrew Keen: Right; there’s the Hilton--the Paris Hilton(s) but in the context of all this given that it’s an aristocracy why are we--so many of us so hopeful that the Internet is resulting in more and more democracy?
Esther Dyson: I think you’re mixing up things; I mean first of all aristocracy--there used to be an aristocracy of land, then there was an aristocracy of money, and now there’s an aristocracy of attention. There’s also--
Andrew Keen: Right.
Esther Dyson: --democracy--I mean I don’t know what the hell democracy means. Liberty is not the same as democracy; democracy is you can vote for the guy you want, but again I think you have a lot more empowered individuals. Your ability to get attention is not as dependent on your birth as it was 300 years--.
Andrew Keen: So it’s a meritocracy of attention?
Esther Dyson: Well that may put it slightly to--you still need to--but I guess the point is there’s no contradiction between there being more personal empowerment and there being an aristocracy of attention. Or there’s not a huge contradiction.
Andrew Keen: Final question Esther and this has been a wonderful interview and you’ll probably tell me off for simplifying things, but what most scares you--very simply? And in 10 years time I can come back and tell you, you were right or wrong.
Esther Dyson: Yeah; well you see in one way nothing scares me. If you told me there was going to be a nuclear holocaust tomorrow--
Andrew Keen: [Laughs] That would scare you wouldn’t it?
Esther Dyson: Well no, no; I mean if you told me how to prevent it, it would scare me that I wouldn’t be able to do by following those rules--that something would go wrong. If you told me there was going to be one tomorrow and there was nothing I could do about it I’d start thinking about well what would I do afterwards.
Andrew Keen: After the holocaust?
Esther Dyson: Yeah; and--and there would be a lot to do so I’d get busy and I’d be happy. [Laughs] You know I mean I’m not scared because I don’t expect it to be perfect anyway, so it’s only a question of degree.
Andrew Keen: Okay.
Esther Dyson: And in terms of the rest of my life I know I’m mortal. If I knew I were immortal I’d be really scared that I couldn’t do everything.
Andrew Keen: Okay.
Esther Dyson: Knowing that I’m mortal, all I need to do is as much as I can.
Andrew Keen: Well what would you like to do; if there is one thing that you can improve--?
Esther Dyson: Well you know I’d like to become god and make everybody happy. If I can't do that--if I had a billion dollars I’d probably spend most of it on education because I think the best thing around to solve the world’s problems is its people, and the only way its people can do that is if they’re educated enough to enjoy all these benefits we talked about. So to me education in the end is the solution to healthcare, economic productivity, democracy, self-empowerment, picking the right government; fundamentally you need to give people the capability to do it for themselves and that’s the education to start making those intelligent decisions.
Andrew Keen: For anyone who wants to follow-up and talk to you about education what would be the best way of doing it?
Esther Dyson: Edyson@edventure.com and that stands for Esther Dyson, but you can imagine it stands for education as well.
Andrew Keen: Esther, thank you so much for appearing on After TV; it’s been great.
Esther Dyson: Thank you.
Narrator: Thanks for listening to After TV, which is hosted and distributed by www.pajamasmedia.com, featuring music by Unity, an artist licensed by Creative Commons. Hope you can join us again.
Rather than a Kissinger metric, I think the world would benefit from an EDyson rating, a metric that would measure one's relationship to Esther Dyson.
Posted by: Sylvia Paull | August 15, 2006 at 08:30 AM
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